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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Well at GPA it does not seem to be. From my conversations with them, it did not seem that they do this. They do have the equipment, tho. And for my second recharge they could not do it, at least not without ripping the new cones off.
I also got the impression from Bill that he did not do the first remag, someone else in the shop did. I do believe he did the recone - it's very nice - and maybe he did the second attempt at a remag.
My main question now is - Can the magnets go beyond repair? Even when there is no obvious damage? Bill said no, but at least one other Altec fan I've spoken to has said yes.
Anyone know?
Obviously I'm bummed because I thought that having the woofers reconed and remagnatized would bring them back to spec. That was not the case for mine. So I wonder how many others have had the same bad luck and never known it?
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Ok, here we go. Hairbrained idea #xxxxx.
Open the magnets from the back. You may have to take it to somebody with a lathe. remove the magnet, (I haven't the foggiest idea if you can do that. Never seen the insides of one) call up these guys:
Thomas and Skinner
get some new magnets. Drill and tap the body casing and clearance drill the cover that you have had your machinist cut off. Then screw the assembly back together with lots of screws. Sorry, my lathe stops at 6". I'm thinking you'll need a 12" home machinist or a shop that's desperate for work.
What kind of alnico is in there? This of course is resuscitation beyond the call....
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Thomas and Skinner- Alnico made in the USA, AND exported to China. :CAT:
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by panomaniac
Obviously I'm bummed because I thought that having the woofers reconed and remagnatized would bring them back to spec. That was not the case for mine. So I wonder how many others have had the same bad luck and never known it?
- I'm thinking that the new normal ( SOP or Standard Operating Procedure - before reconing ) should now include a "gauss check of the gap" to confirm that proceeding with a recone is indeed worthwhile .
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
Is magnet strength testing after a recharge but before a re-cone a standard practice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by panomaniac
Well at GPA it does not seem to be. From my conversations with them, it did not seem that they do this. They do have the equipment, tho. And for my second recharge they could not do it, at least not without ripping the new cones off.
- I have no idea if GPA would incorporate this additional step into the remagging / reconing process . Since it adds a bit of time / the service may need to be added to the bill .
Quote:
My main question now is - Can the magnets go beyond repair? Even when there is no obvious damage? Bill said no, but at least one other Altec fan I've spoken to has said yes.
Anyone know?
- I don't know . The general consensus has always been that under normal circumstances an Alnico magnet can be fully recharged .
- Your 416a magnets provide the challenge to this oft quoted rule and it would be really helpful to understand why they are resisting a full recharge .
<> cheers
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Isn't it weird that both cores are impacted in a similar way; and the charge is lost not once but twice and possibly three times?
If these mags won't stay charged up there is a reason why!
Does this indicate that the composition of the Alnico alloy is incorrect? It seems unlikely if this is not a common issue or at least a know risk with other older Altec cores and since these two specific Altec cores suffer the same exact problem.
If I owned these at this stage, and GPA does not want to help you get to the bottom of the problem, I might consider shipping a single unit to a repair shop other than GPA that could do a recharge without ripping out the good "new" re-cone.
...just a thought, I suppose...
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
airboss
What kind of alnico is in there?
Speakers use alnico 5.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
I just have a few comments.
416-A or 416-8A was way before EV arrived, correct?
Unless I missed it, what is your method of measuring the parameters?
I have a procedure, but I'd have to dig through countless piles of paperwork to find it. Ok, here it is online:
Measuring Loudspeaker Driver Parameters
On stock altecs I've measured, they were within +/- 10% of spec, which is probably the norm given production tolerances. The measurement is touchy, especially Fs. I hang the speaker from the ceiling with chains.
Have you measured a stock good working unit to compare?
I'm wondering if GPA knows wether their magnatizer is even working? How does one measure the magnatization when done. Seems to me if it's busted, it could demag!
GPA did the first pair of 411-8A for me, and I measured the TS on the one good working one before sending them in. It was spot on, but the cone was sunk. when I got the reconed ones back, they measured like good 416-8B drivers......the parts used just weren't the same as the originals. Spider and surround were different. Of course, these are ferrite.
Bought GPA parts for a pair of 416-8C, had a local reconer install them, and they measured very close to spec. Another ferrite driver.
I also have GPA parts for a pair of 416-8B that I bought new, I want to recone these myself someday, but the parts are not dead nuts to the originals, so I wonder.....tha magnets should be good, they were never overheated, dropped or abused.
Ron
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
I'm reasonably certain that GPA and others who have mag capability do NOT discharge and re-charge cores with ferrite (non-Alnico) motors.
Anyway, this is what Bill told me recently when I asked him about a re-cone for a pair of ferrite cores. Apparently, ferrite cores do not suffer permanent loss in strength when exposed to big current hits like Alnico, so in general, there is no need to do this.
I believe I was also told the magnification (recharge) involves two separate processes; (1) demag the motor to a point where it has zero strength, and (2) recharge the motor to full spec.
I thought GPA recharged all cores with Alnico motors as a standard practice. At least one other repair shop located in California that I know does not recharge cores unless you ask, and there is a separate fee (about $25 each) for this service.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Speaking of re-magnetizing etc.. A tiny bit OT, but check out the zap that it takes to magnetize a driver, wow what a zap!
YouTube - PHY-HP famous speakerunits made by Bernard Salabert of France.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonSSS
I'm wondering if GPA knows whether their magnatizer is even working?
I've wondered the same thing myself! If there were a local shop with a magnetizer I'd pay to have them zapped again, just for a sanity check. But I don't want to pay round trip shipping somewhere on a gamble.
FYI, I use the Dayton WT3 for my measurements. It sees to be very good, reliable and repeatable. Most known drivers I measure come out close enough to spec. It is always possible that it's wrong, but so far it checks with other drivers and methods. And from what I remember GPA telling me they measured, it's the same. Unfortunately they never sent me the measurements for my drivers.
Maybe it's time to search for a near by speaker repair shop that can zap them.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonSSS
I'm wondering if GPA knows wether their magnatizer is even working? How does one measure the magnatization when done.
Ron
I'd imagine they know it's working, for new production, the mags aren't charged till assembly is complete, so there would have been a bunch of new drivers with dead magnets. ;)
If they're still holding them in the mag fixture by hand like they used to, the guy doin' the holdin' most assuredly knows.
For production, you don't measure 'em, you saturate 'em and go to the next one. :)
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
I thought there were only a handful of folks that have motor recharge capability.
Orange County Speaker is one that I have used a few times without incident. My reconer, Erik of Gabriel Sound in NJ, uses a chap in New England to remag drivers that he repairs, but I have not had any experience with him on this service as everything I have given him so far, has had ferrite motors.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bfish
I'd imagine they know it's working, for new production, the mags aren't charged till assembly is complete........
Herein lies the crux of the matter, if the magnet isn't completely drained, then it doesn't take a full charge and it's not proportional either. I've zapped/re-zapped thousands of pairs of AlNiCo slot car motor magnets and when not completely drained can wind up not being as powerful as a cheap ceramic. Fortunately, they can be redone a bunch before residuals? forces a replacement. Bottom line, if they aren't being checked before and after re-zapping as we did with every pair, no telling how many folks have paid for relatively weak re-cones.
GM
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Know anyone down in Atlanta who can recharge? If shipping is not too far, I'd take another chance.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Not anymore, the two re-coners I used are long gone now as is the one in Tenn. I used after they shut down, but I'll hopefully be talking to a ~ local re-coner I've known for awhile on Wednesday about all this. Stay tuned..........
GM
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GM
Herein lies the crux of the matter, if the magnet isn't completely drained, then it doesn't take a full charge and it's not proportional either. I've zapped/re-zapped thousands of pairs of AlNiCo slot car motor magnets and when not completely drained can wind up not being as powerful as a cheap ceramic. Fortunately, they can be redone a bunch before residuals? forces a replacement. Bottom line, if they aren't being checked before and after re-zapping as we did with every pair, no telling how many folks have paid for relatively weak re-cones.
I'll have to take your word on this ( a complete discharge before recharging is necessary ) / it does make sense .
- I guess your assumption is that GPA didn't discharge the alnico first before recharging , correct ? Maybe that didn't happen, I dunno .
- OTOH, Robert Bartsch's' earlier posts within this thread ( about getting misaligned 2402s returned to him from GPA after a recharge ) suggest that GPAs' SOP actually is to discharge the alnico magnets before recharging .
- His misfortune was seemingly caused by a different form of poor operating procedure ( GPA didn't check the alignment of the drivers' gap before shipping them back ) .
- Nonetheless, there are enough testimonials ( here, within this thread ) that I would now be quite wary of sending my stuff into GPA for refurbishment ( blissfully thinking that all will be well upon the gears' return ) without some new operational guidelines having first been put in place by GPA .
- It's a real drag ( for a few reasons ) to find that one is now in the position of having to impose new SOPs onto any outfit ( like GPA ) // I usually just take my business elsewhere to avoid the hassle .
<> cheers
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
I'm becoming increasingly uncomforable with this thread for a variety of reasons. But that's not important right now.
What is important, is GPA is the only supplier of the stuff this forum depends on for it's existance. Let me underline this before the fight starts; FOR THE MOST PART.
So we have a lot of comments, a video of a speaker manufacturer clearly hand holding new driver frames while juking them, and a lot of opinions from a lot of folks about slot cars motors for one thing, and mostly just a lot of CONGECTURE about GPA being incompetent.
All this without some form of defence from Bill or the Captain, or Todd, who is after all the marketing director of the operation.
So, awhile back I asked, how long does alnico remain at usable strength after re-charge? No answer.
I'm sorry about your bad luck Pano, but you admitted at the outset that the frames were beaters when you got them. That's not GPA's fault. My frames came out of a Dual Showman box. one coil is open with heat damage apparent. I elected to go with the 416-Cs for that reason.
I think it is time Todd, to get some idea of the SOP for re-cone at GPA, and some defence here. Bill H is not the devil. Somebody even suggested they don't own a gauss meter. Eh?
Ok, got my flame proof suit on. Go ahead.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by airboss
I think it is time Todd, to get some idea of the SOP for re-cone at GPA, and some defence here. Bill H is not the devil. Somebody even suggested they don't own a gauss meter.
I agree ( good suggestion :) ), it would be quite helpful if Todd W. would look into what is the SOP over at GPA ( for recones in a case like Panos ) and then post that info here .
<> cheers
ps ; I think everyone knows that Bill H. is a very personable/approachable guy .
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
airboss
I'm sorry about your bad luck Pano, but you admitted at the outset that the frames were beaters when you got them. That's not GPA's fault.
He said they were "pretty well beat". That's not an exact term, and can mean just about anything. The whole point of getting a speaker re-coned/rebuilt is to fix them. You don't start out with a good speaker. That's the nature of the situation.
The condition before hand certainly isn't GPA's fault, but to go back and tell Pano that it's basically his fault for wanting bad woofers fixed isn't right either.
I'm glad it's not me, and am now wondering about the pair, I need re-coned........ I don't have any way to check the parameters either.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
airboss
I'm becoming increasingly uncomforable with this thread for a variety of reasons...
Me too. The potentially libelous speculation in this thread is very disappointing. (Edit: the following quote is not intended as an example of said speculation, but rather context for my following comment).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Panomaniac
...About a year ago I bout a pair of 416As off eBay. They were reasonably price for the shape they where in. Had come out of a pair of A7s somewhere in Jersey. But had been reconed with MI cones. They were pretty beat.
As bought, they worked, but definitely needed a recone and remag. T/S parameters showed weak magnets. So I dropped then off in OK city into the hands of Bill H. He remagged, reconed and sent them to me. Lovely cones, but.... magnets still weak. Qts of about 0.5 on one, 0.4 on the other. No good. Vas not close either. They're way out of spec.
I called Bill to ask about it. He said he was pretty sure they remagnetized them, but they could have slipped thru. So I sent them back. They zapped them again. But they hardly changed at all. So I had to pay for the 2nd remag. Both Bill's measurements and mine show weak magnets, one more than the other...
Is my deductive reasoning shot...? There are plenty of possible reasons, but the drivers are both obviously defective. Maybe the first reconer opened the gap with sandpaper to clear rust or to fit a non-OEM, round wire kit (it happens)... maybe they left the factory bad... maybe they're not 416s at all... maybe... shit happens.
To expect a remag AND full diagnostics for the ~$15 price is ridiculous. We can probably kiss that bargain (for the rest of us with good results) goodbye now. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Audio_by_Goodwill
...am now wondering about the pair, I need re-coned....
Which is exactly the effect of such unfounded speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Earl K
... I think everyone knows that Bill H. is a very personable/approachable guy .
He's much, much more than that.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bfish
Is my deductive reasoning shot...? There are plenty of possible reasons, but the drivers are both obviously defective. Maybe the first reconer opened the gap with sandpaper to clear rust or.........
Wouldn't removing any significant material be pretty tough to do that way?
Quote:
To expect a remag AND full diagnostics for the ~$15 price is ridiculous. You can probably kiss that bargain (for the rest of us with good results) goodbye now. :(
I would think things would be checked over before a re-cone would take place. Maybe this is indeed a rare thing? ......similar to me not being worried about penguins invading my home. Contrary to what Bfish or GM may think, there are no penguins in Michigan :-)
Quote:
Which is exactly the effect of such unfounded speculation.
Agreed.
Quote:
He's much, much more than that.
All my knowledge of Bill is 2nd hand, but that's consistent with what I've heard, and why I always steer people towards GPA when Altec parts and service come up on various forums.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
airboss
I'm becoming increasingly uncomforable with this thread for a variety of reasons.
Then do us both a favor and put this thread on your mental 'ignore' list. :)
GM
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Audio_by_Goodwill
Wouldn't removing any significant material be pretty tough to do that way?.
Not when "significant" is defined by a few thousandths. Such a crude method could explain why they're different from each other too (assuming they were the "same" to start with).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Audio_by_Goodwill
I would think things would be checked over before a re-cone would take place. Maybe this is indeed a rare thing? ......similar to me not being worried about penguins invading my home.
Actually, that's a pretty good analogy.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GM
Then do us both a favor and put this thread on your mental 'ignore' list. :)
GM
Well, no in a word GM. You are far more the expert in this field than I am. Maybe we should talk about process control on a 900 mile pipeline sometime. Oh, never mind. No forums for that.
I can spot chicken shit and envy from mile away though. This thread, and I'm not talking about everyone, has brought out the lynch mob mentality here and I think it's time for some moderation.
Tell, me sir. Have YOU had any personally disappointing experiences with GPA or do you do all your re-mag and cone work yourself? :welcome:
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Whooaaaa there Boys. Time to back up and minute. Ya'll are getting way ahead of way yourselves and maybe implying things I never said nor meant.
Let's set the record straight.
1: It was the cones that were beat, not the frames. And as far as I knew, not the magnets.
2: I have NEVER said, nor did I ever intend to imply that GPA or anyone else is incompetent.
Please re-read my posts.
3: I was only curious as to why my drivers would not take a charge. My impression was that Alnico magnets are commonly revived by recharging. Mine were not. I was wondering (publicaly) why.
My suspicions were that either these 416s were no good to begin with, or that they had been so badly mistreated that they could not be revived. Cosmetically they are a 7/10. One might not suspect there would be anything wrong.
I never said to anyone that GPA was not competent. Never. I was disappointed that GPA would not or could not tell me more, that's all.
If I wanted to rant and rave about something or someone I'd have done it a year ago. You did not see that, did you? These drivers are a write off. If there is someone out there that knows more about it, their info is welcome. And I wouldn't mind having someone else have a stab at recharging one of these. Just to see what happens. I doubt there will be any change.
My dealings with GPA were good. They are both friendly and helpful. I wish they had been able to help me more, but they couldn't - that's all. My desire was to learn more about vintage drivers so that maybe I would not get burned with a bad purchase in the future.
Please do not project your feelings and your meanings on to my posts.
Clear enough?
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Clear as a bell, and it was clear in the beginning Pano. You have not made the negative comments on GPA and it's staff. There were comments made regarding the incompetence of the operation there. That was when I asked for some reflection. Now GM says to butt out and I ain't going to be run off by somebody working on their post count by running bad mouth on a reputable company and it's personnel.
What I asked for was that the Moderator, get us some information so that the F'D UP SPECUTLATION might be set aside and we can get the facts. Remember when I got my ass chewed by Old Guy? Turns out he was right. Let's get the facts here and stop with the character assassination and speculation about the equipment and manufacturing techniques at GPA.
I came out of the oil industry. I've seen every kind of chicken poop expert in the world talk endlessley about things they know nothing about. They're called politicians. Talk when listening is in order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Panomaniac
Whooaaaa there Boys. Time to back up and minute. Ya'll are getting way ahead of way yourselves and maybe implying things I never said nor meant.
Let's set the record straight.
1: It was the cones that were beat, not the frames. And as far as I knew, not the magnets.
2: I have NEVER said, nor did I ever intend to imply that GPA or anyone else is incompetent.
Please re-read my posts.
3: I was only curious as to why my drivers would not take a charge. My impression was that Alnico magnets are commonly revived by recharging. Mine were not. I was wondering (publicaly) why.
My suspicions were that either these 416s were no good to begin with, or that they had been so badly mistreated that they could not be revived. Cosmetically they are a 7/10. One might not suspect there would be anything wrong.
I never said to anyone that GPA was not competent. Never. I was disappointed that GPA would not or could not tell me more, that's all.
If I wanted to rant and rave about something or someone I'd have done it a year ago. You did not see that, did you? These drivers are a write off. If there is someone out there that knows more about it, their info is welcome. And I wouldn't mind having someone else have a stab at recharging one of these. Just to see what happens. I doubt there will be any change.
My dealings with GPA were good. They are both friendly and helpful. I wish they had been able to help me more, but they couldn't - that's all. My desire was to learn more about vintage drivers so that maybe I would not get burned with a bad purchase in the future.
Please do not project your feelings and your meanings on to my posts.
Clear enough?
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Panomaniac
Whooaaaa there Boys. Time to back up and minute. Ya'll are getting way ahead of way yourselves and maybe implying things I never said nor meant.
...........
Please do not project your feelings and your meanings on to my posts.
Clear enough?
Likewise, as a bell. I think if you'll review my post(s), you'll see I didn't infer that your posts were what I have a problem with. Sorry if you got that impression Pano.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bfish
Not when "significant" is defined by a few thousandths. Such a crude method could explain why they're different from each other too (assuming they were the "same" to start with).
I'll admit, that I don't have a firm grasp on what a few thousandth is........ although, I suppose I could dig out a feeler gauge. It just doesn't seem like sandpaper in the gap could remove much of anything. Maybe I lack the patience to damage something that slowly :D
Quote:
Actually, that's a pretty good analogy.
The source of my penguin analogy: We had a bear in town about 2 years ago, and the bear was killed by the police. People were up in arms about the poor bear being shot, and why weren't the police prepared for such an event. Up until that time, a bear in town would have been crazy talk. I figured that if the local police should've known to be prepared for bears, then they should also be prepared for penguins. Bears are normally only in the UP...... or maybe the very north part of the lower peninsula, but the possibility of the bear crossing the bridge was discussed.
I generally don't worry about bears...... although, it does cross my mind now when I'm out in the woods in large berry patch!
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Audio_by_Goodwill
I'll admit, that I don't have a firm grasp on what a few thousandth is........ although, I suppose I could dig out a feeler gauge. It just doesn't seem like sandpaper in the gap could remove much of anything. Maybe I lack the patience to damage something that slowly :D
I can say from first hand experience that it's not that hard with emory cloth. I destroyed a driver that way myself once. :doh:
PM me for the detailed technique if you wanna try it...
So, if a bear craps in the woods and there's no one there to hear it, does it still smell...?
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bfish
I can say from first hand experience that it's not that hard with emory cloth. I destroyed a driver that way myself once. :doh:
PM me for the detailed technique if you wanna try it...
So, if a bear craps in the woods and there's no one there to hear it, does it still smell...?
It's so hard to tell isn't it. I keep thinking about water intrusion. I remember sitting under poncho's at outdoor concerts back in the day, pouring down rain, all smoked up and the A7s out in the open soaking up water.
Somebody mentioned return path problems. The back caps on the magnets are pressure fit with a couple little welds to keep them in place. It looks like the center hole has some sort of threaded connection to something inside. The alnico slug? Both these areas would allow intrusion of water. Are they full of rust? I dunno. We could document this photographically and learn something.
I just wish there was a way to pull the magnet structure without ripping the cone off because I have two identical magnets that I would donate to the investigation. Can the spider be moved and the screw heads be gotten to? I really don't know. Maybe we could drain and recharge mine and stick them on Pano's baskets. I just dunno. My investment, if it was much, was a long time ago and long ago forgotten. And besides OG is pretty sure I'm full of it in the 418B department and it may be the unit I have that still works is in need of a re-mag/cone etc to be representative anyway. In other words, let's rip them up and give it another try. But I would insist on GPA just to keep all things consistent. I'll rip the cones out tonight Pano, and send you the magnets if you want to get to the bottom of it. Just a guess but, I looked at them and I think a guy could get inside for a look and then do a quick mig weld for closure. They were welded shut once, they could be done again.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bfish
So, if a bear craps in the woods and there's no one there to hear it, does it still smell...?
I think that depends on whether or not it ends up on the bottom of someone shoe later.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Thanks airboss. I do believe that the magnets will not come off without removing the spider - and maybe the cone too. For that I'm going to wait. These may be usable to someone as they are.
If they turn out to be really useless duds then ripping those beautiful new cones off won't hurt so much. ;)
I'm off to Dallas this morning to the Lone Star Audio Fest. Will be pounding the guests with an open baffle rig of Altec 605 and Eminence 18". Gonna be fun!
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by airboss
I just wish there was a way to pull the magnet structure without ripping the cone off because I have two identical magnets that I would donate to the investigation. Can the spider be moved and the screw heads be gotten to? I really don't know. Maybe we could drain and recharge mine and stick them on Pano's baskets. I just dunno. My investment, if it was much, was a long time ago and long ago forgotten. And besides OG is pretty sure I'm full of it in the 418B department and it may be the unit I have that still works is in need of a re-mag/cone etc to be representative anyway. In other words, let's rip them up and give it another try. But I would insist on GPA just to keep all things consistent. I'll rip the cones out tonight Pano, and send you the magnets if you want to get to the bottom of it. Just a guess but, I looked at them and I think a guy could get inside for a look and then do a quick mig weld for closure. They were welded shut once, they could be done again.
Dan, that's a very generous offer, to give up your 418s for the sake of science .
FYI, ( the scuttlebutt that I've heard is ) once the magnetic circuit is broken ( by removing either the back-plate or the top-plate ) , the alnico slug must be recharged .
I believe it has something to do with a possible field reversal ( leading too a partial demag ) when the plates are pried apart ( & apparently the direction of the plate movement also matters ) .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
I can spot chicken shit and envy from mile away though.
This thread, and I'm not talking about everyone, has brought out the lynch mob mentality here and I think it's time for some moderation.
In my neck of the woods we use the phrase "fly shit" to describe the action of "obsessing over a trivial matter" .
I'm not sure if that was the message behind your words that I've quoted but ( fwiw ) I don't believe this is a worthless obsession to find a way to tweak the SOP of a company ( GPA ) when the change will educate the consumer and allow him to avoid fruitless repairs and expense .
I don't see how this ultimately hurts the PR of any company .
I do understand that many companys wish to avoid the dialogue necessary to get there ( identify a problem & rectify it ) . I hope the GPA is one of those companies that embraces a bit of change when that change is beneficial to all parties .
Quote:
Originally Posted by panomaniac
Obviously I'm bummed because I thought that having the woofers reconed and remagnetized would bring them back to spec. That was not the case for mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pano
My desire was to learn more about vintage drivers so that maybe I would not get burned with a bad purchase in the future.
Lets not lose sight of the fact that at this juncture this has now cost Pano some real money ( all in a lousy economy where no ones losses are as quickly forgiven ) .
Anyways, the ( following ) suggested changes to GPAs Standard Operating Procedure ( SOP ) are to avoid these situations ( as referenced in Pano's quote ) . These suggestions are now a week old see here !
- The tweak ( to procedure ) would be to have GPA remag first and then check the gauss level in the gap before proceeding with a recone .
- In the event the magnetic assembly won't hold the charge ( I think it's @ 11,000 gauss within the gap ) then the customer is contacted for further direction .
- I haven't completely thought through the consequences of a negative being given by the customer ( after hearing a woofer is a no-go ) / though I speculate that the alnico slug may still have some value to GPA if it's placed into a better return circuit . Anyways, the customer may just decide to cut his loses at that point and leave GPA to do what they will with the reject .
- Anecdotal evidence ( from Bill Hs experience with magging ) indicates this may be a rare occurance . Therefore I can see some customers opting to avoid the extra test / assuming it's made optional .
- This extra step would need to cost more than the $ 15.00 which Brad ( bfish ) has quoted as the present cost ( since the guass check would slow down the repair process ) .
- There is no reason that this added step ( & cost ) can't be made voluntary from the get-go ( initial contact between customer & GPA ). ie ; the customer is asked if he wants the extra step taken to determne if his woofer is a viable candidate for reconing .
BTW Dan, are you going to shoot Todd White a PM to get involved here in this thread ?
<> cheers Earl K
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Hi,
To save everyone a bit of time ( & space within this post ) here is ;
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
- Nonetheless, there are enough testimonials ( here, within this thread ) that I would now be quite wary of sending my stuff into GPA for refurbishment ( blissfully thinking that all will be well upon the gears' return ) without some new operational guidelines having first been put in place by GPA .
- It's a real drag ( for a few reasons ) to find that one is now in the position of having to impose new SOPs onto any outfit ( like GPA ) // I usually just take my business elsewhere to avoid the hassle .
My "attitude" telegraphs quite easily since I state my reservations ( about GPAs process ) very early in the thread .
So let me clarify some of those words .
- I usually allow companies to fall on their own swords ( so to speak ) because I'm not in their employ as their "process engineer" to fix their problems.
- I do believe in some market forces being allowed to play out .
Since GPA is the only game in town for Altec lovers, I chose ( pretty early in this thread ) a slightly different tact and have offered a solution.
O.T.O.H ;
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfish
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfish
Chunk 'em and chalk it up... life goes on.
If you want, I'll send coordinates to my Cache of Monumental Failures. There's always room for more. ;)
Is my deductive reasoning shot...? There are plenty of possible reasons, but the drivers are both obviously defective. Maybe the first reconer opened the gap with sandpaper to clear rust or to fit a non-OEM, round wire kit (it happens)... maybe they left the factory bad... maybe they're not 416s at all... maybe... shit happens.
To expect a remag AND full diagnostics for the ~$15 price is ridiculous. We can probably kiss that bargain (for the rest of us with good results) goodbye now. :(
Brad,
I find your conclusion ( in red ) somewhat callous .
My interpretation of all your posts here ( within this thread ) is that Pano ( or anyone in his position ) has sole ownership of the dilemma that he now finds himself in .
- ie; You seemingly imply that, "even talking about it here threatens the greater good ( such as the possible retirement of the $ 15.00 fee ) / & therefore he ( & the rest of us campaigning for a change to GPAs' process ) should clam up ".
I disagree ( if that is indeed your position ) , my perspective is that everyone here has some culpability when they simply parrot the message that these "old Altec drivers are all fixable over at GPA" . Clearly that message isn't correct and Pano has been misled by it .
I've now offered ( a few times ) my solution on how to avoid having his dilemma repeat itself / therefore I am done with this particular issue . I've had my say .
cheers <> EarlK
PS; ( & FWIW )
- Within the last week I saw a post that something similar to my suggestion was now being implemented at GPA .:)
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Earl, thanks for the correction. Chicken Shit is perhaps too strong a word. But the implied (with a smiley yet) "shut the F up" suggestion by GM is not going down right in anybody's neigborhood. I'm not going to be pushed out for making a very reasonable and polite suggestion.
I first came to this forum back in '03 maybe? I'm not sure. But it was a kinder and gentler place then. Now it seems to have become a hideout for a few self proclaimed experts who's rude comments don't add to the general knowledge. Some people want to tear down, some people want to build up.
I came out of a corporate structure where rank was ignored. I've personally attended roundtables that included the Chief Engineering Vice President of Aleyeska Pipeline Service Company amongst others, where my warnings and advice vis' a vis' work procedures on multi-million dollar valve changouts were treated with as much respect as the contract design engineer. I've come out ahead on most of those discussions primarily because of a penchant for caution when it comes "the rush to judgement"; and a profound understanding of the systems approach to process control. "My well known mantra in Alyeska circles was "Wait a minute, let's think about this for a minute".
Top down management is a no-no at Arco and now BP as it is becoming in most multi-nationals. People with sharp elbows don't last long in this world, and the current crisis in the Gulf (mark my words) will probably boil down to warnings ignored and schedules pushed.
There is no question that I'm not near as well versed in acoustic matters as nearly everyone here. I came for some advice and some of it has been answered with less than civil response. Some folks can't be bothered to mentor the newcomer. They want to belittle him instead. The forum has a collective conscience. It needs to look at itself.
I think you should have a conversation with Bill H yourself. He's available. Finally, if re-magnetizing 60 year old drivers requires a different approach for success, I don't think it should be optional.
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
I think you should have a conversation with Bill H yourself. He's available.
I'll do that if Todd doesn't have Bill read my proposal first ( as outlined above ) and then solicit his response for public consumption.
I'll give it till next week some time .
Quote:
Finally, if re-magnetizing 60 year old drivers requires a different approach for success, I don't think it should be optional.
I need to ponder that some more . Right now I can see pluses & minuses, either way .
<> cheers
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
Airboss,
I feel your pain regarding some of the responses given here. Just because some of us newbees ask redundant or simple questions does not need a response of "That was discussed before, or look at some of the previous threads". Most of the time a simple direct answer can set us straight.
If you look at the number of regular members that post here you will see there are just a few. Why are there not more newbees?. Could it be that they don't want to be told to go and search some buried thread that may or may not answer their questions.
I know most of you that post here are WAY over my head regarding audio knowledge. We all have to learn somewhere and sometime. I am over 60 and sometimes learning doesn't come as easily as it used to.
Thanks to all of those that take the time to help us newbees understand. We do appreciate your effort. I learn more every time I read someones posting. But PLEASE don't beat me up too bad for asking a stupid question. I get that enough from my wife...
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Re: A 416 dilemma. What to do?
I just finished a lengthy conversation via telephone with Bill at GPA. He's going to look in on this thread and maybe make a reply.
#1 Altec alnico speaker magnets structures cannot be drained without complete dissassembly of the magnet structure. Each component of the structure would need to be individually drained. That is very difficult and not necessary.
#2 He does measure flux in the gap before and after re-mag.
#3 I have cancelled my order for a new pair of ferrite 416s at his suggestion because, as he said, you've got to do something with your existing frames right? You're not going to throw them away?
#4 I'll let him explain how driver frames are ruined, but Bfish has part of the answer and the other is dissasembly of the magnet structure by amateur re-coners or just curious "what's in here?" mechanics. There were more, but I can't recall.
There's a bunch of misinformation floating around here, as I thought.
If he's wrong, I'll accept correction only from somebody with a physics background and an engineering degree. Perhaps someone from Thomas and Skinner or MIT. Cal Poly will do.
Enough of the horsefeathers.
